24
Mar
15

๐Ÿ”ด For the Love of Lizzington

 

๐Ÿ”ด For the Love of Lizzington, with Appendices

 
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๐Ÿ”ด Original Article: For the Love of Lizzington
๐Ÿ”ด Special Update ๎Š April 12, 2016
๐Ÿ”ด Appendix 1: Letter to Jason Evans (1), WSJ Speakeasy Blog on The Blacklist
๐Ÿ”ด Appendix 2: WSJ Blog Post: Bullying of Shippers
๐Ÿ”ด Appendix 3: WSJ Blog Post: Response โ€“ Defense of Shipper Argument
๐Ÿ”ด Appendix 4: WSJ Blog Post: Response โ€“ Defense of Article (“For the Love of Lizzington”)
๐Ÿ”ด Appendix 5: Letter to Jason Evans (2), WSJ Speakeasy Blog on The Blacklist

 

๐Ÿ”ด Original Article: For the Love of Lizzington


 
It’s not possible to know what The Blacklist’s producers and writers have in store for us over the next year (and hopefully many more!), for one simple reason: they may not know either. Peter Stormare (who played Berlin) described the situation:

โ€œThey have six or seven different scenarios, and I donโ€™t know what direction they will go in. I do not envy the writers because they are really kicked from both sides all the time. They try to come up with the best solution, and sometimes they have to do rewrites over night. TV is a gruesome business. But there is a great revolution that has happened on TV. A lot of talent is moving inโ€ฆโ€
Source: IAmRogue: Peter Stormare Talks โ€˜Autumn Blood,โ€™ โ€˜The Big Lebowski 2โ€ฒ and โ€˜The Blacklistโ€™ http://bit.ly/13oWEMW
// 10/22/2014

We do know there is an endgame, because Jon Bokenkamp has referred to it, with the caveat that it depends on Sony and NBC:

Q: Wendy Davies: Do you already have an endgame for the Blacklist?
A: Yes. Not sure if Sony or NBC will let me do it, but yes. โ€“ Jon
Source; WSJSpeakeasyBlog (FB): Q&A with The Blacklist creator Jon Bokenkamp http://on.fb.me/10WABMc
// 11/11/2014

James Spader knows Liz and Red’s relationship. (It would be hard to play his part otherwise.) But he has on several occasions urged viewers to concentrate on the show’s unfolding rather than on it’s conclusion, noting on one occasion, “‘the most compelling thing is the nature of that relationship now.’ Spader is interested in how Keen is compelled to help Reddington even though itโ€™s counterintuitive for her. ‘The journey has to be good, because itโ€™s terrible at the top of Everest.'” http://bit.ly/15q9gUR

Still, he says when he travels, the father/daughter question is what people always want an answer to:

โ€œWhen viewers respond well to a character, thereโ€™s a natural tendency for them to say, โ€˜I want to know more. I want to know everything.’ But I say, ‘Well, you canโ€™t. It would ruin the character for you. You just must trust me in terms of of that.'”
Source: The Playboy Interview: James Spader http://bit.ly/1sKfatM
// Sep 2014

There is little question that network and advertiser feedback affects all network American TV shows, since that is how shows are financed in this country. This system has its drawbacks, as described by David Auerbach in The Cosmology of Serialized Television http://bit.ly/1FEDhkq (TheAmericanReader 2013) โ€“ but it is what it is.

As far as the outcome, whether or not Red turns out to be Liz’s father will likely not be revealed until the final season, and no one knows when that will be โ€“ and who wants to hurry it? Hopefully, when cancelled, The Blacklist will be at least be granted enough time to answer this question and others without leaving a lot of dangling details left over.

Presently, it seems the showrunners have chosen the path of constantly teasing both sides of this dispute by remaining ambiguous but providing enough “red meat” to continually satisfy both. Playing some of these scenes, like the hugging scene in 2:8 The Decembrist, cannot be easy.
 

Playing it right down the middle.

Playing it right down the middle.


 
That said, it still appears that the show has tried to make the case that Red is not Liz’s father. For one thing, Liz asked Red straight out in 1:10 “Are you my father?” and he answered “No” โ€“ albeit only after a several second pause โ€“ again leaving some ambiguity. Daniel Knauf, a senior writer and Co-Executive Producer, was asked this question on Twitter on 2/5/2015. Again, the answer appears to have been “No”:

Ash @Silverarrow82 Feb 5
@Daniel_Knauf Are we going have to wait until the end of the show (like 6 yrs) until they answer the dad question? #calmandcomposedfangirl ๐Ÿ˜‰
โ†ฅ โ†ง
Daniel Knauf @Daniel_Knauf Feb 5
@Silverarrow82 We’ve already answered the Dad question. Several times. Out loud. #AskKnaufAnything #TheBlacklist

By 2:15, Lizzy does not believe Red is her father: “Liz: Well There was a time early on when I thought, because of his implications, that he might be my father.” In other words, she no longer believes this.

This has not satisfied the “Father/Daughter” (F/D) crowd, however. Is there more evidence that Red is not Liz’s father?

On the other side of the debate from the F/D crowd are the “shippers.” “Shippers” are people who would like to see a love relationship develop between a pair of characters. For Lizzington shippers or RedXLizzie or some other variant, that would be between Red and Lizzy; for Keenler between Liz and Ressler. The Carlington contingent “ships” Red and his ex, Carla, AKA Naomi Hyland. There are many other “ships.”

There are also variations on the “F/D” view: eg Red is Liz’s uncle, or Red was her father but “our” Red isn’t really Red but an imposter. Or Sam (her adoptive father) was really her biological father.

In terms of polls, I’ve only found three since 9/1/2014. All are online polls with low numbers of participants. But all three find about 40% believing Red is Liz’s father and roughly half as many falling into the Lizzington category. Megan Boone, however, recently referred to the Lizzington shippers in a TVGuide interview as the most active:

In a TVGuide.com poll, 63 percent of votes were against Tom and Liz together. But the Red-Liz (Lizzington) ‘shippers out there seem to be vocal.
Boone: I’m very well aware of them. They actually have the loudest ‘shipper’ voice on social media.

TVGuide: They must have been thrilled with the last episode when Red is about to be shot, and he calls out, “Lizzie,” right before he’s saved.
Boone: Yes, and when she says, “I care about you.” I think the interesting thing about Red Reddington is that ostensibly he’s a sociopath. Only terror lies before him, and there’s destruction in his wake. But the people who are closest to him love him dearly. Dembe (Hisham Tawfiq) and Lizzie both love Red. Even though Lizzie has a very conflicted relationship with that love because she knows who he is, she shows these people a side of him that not very many other people see. That is where the Lizzington crowd comes from. They sense that. And because the audience sees that side of Red, they want that side of Red to prevail.

Source: TVGuide: The Blacklist: How Far Will Liz Go to Protect Tom? Megan Boone Weighs In http://bit.ly/1BpNOYw
// 3/11/2015

 
There is no love lost between these factions (F/D and shipper) and I expect the producers are pummeled on social media any time a group feels the show has moved too far away from its own prejudices or preferences. Still, I continue to be surprised at how many people still think Red is Liz’s father at this point in the story, with repeated denials coming from the show itself and from those who speak for it. Below are some examples which suggest something else is going on.

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ

 
For Season ONE, redandlizzie.tumblr.com has compiled an extensive list of examples pointing to Red not being Liz’s biological father: http://bit.ly/18VjCOa

For Season TWO, @SundayInAugust provided this summary:
 
image
 
Following @SundayInAugust’s lead, I searched through the scripts (and my memory) to compile some additional detail for Season Two. It begins with the dream sequence in Episode 3.

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ

 
2:3 โ€“ Red: What do you want, Agent Keen? What do you really want?
 

The story and visuals of Liz's dream are suggestive.

The story and visuals of Liz’s dream are suggestive.


 
[ This scene has clear sexual overtones. It’s the story of Gyges and the king’s wife all over again (http://bit.ly/1IuHMvA). Would Lizzy’s subconscious come up with such a vision if she believed Red to be her father? More importantly, why did the writers include it? Even Jon Bokenkamp called this “overly sexy Lizzington,” implying both that he was aware of the sexual overtones and showing his concern with staying inside certain boundaries. ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ

 
2:5 โ€“ Jealousy
 

Liz tells Samar she feels possessive and jealous toward Red.

Liz tells Samar she feels possessive and jealous toward Red.

 

2:5 โ€“ Red: As a rule, I consider jealousy to be a base emotion. But in this case, it’s quite endearing.
Liz: [Sighs] Oh, God. I am not jealous.
Red: I assure you, Lizzy, my quest to find this young woman will in no way compromise our relationship.
Liz: “Our relationship”?
โ†ฅ โ†ง
2:5 โ€“ Samar: You know everyone talks about it, right? They don’t want to bring it up with you. Why you? Who is he to you?
Liz: [Inhales sharply] Reddington is โ€“ the bane of my existence. And yet, here he is, trying to reconnect with his daughter? Trying to find her? And I find myself feeling possessiveโ€ฆ
Samar: Mm.
Liz: โ€ฆpossessive of him, jealous of the girl he’s trying to protect. And if that’s not embarrassing enough, that’s exactly how he predicted I’d feel.

[ Liz knows Red had one daughter. She assumes Zoรซ is his daughter. She is concerned that finding his daughter will affect their relationship, something that Red explicitly tried to assure her won’t happen. Later, in her talk with Samar, not only does she rule out the idea that she is his daughter, but she admits her feelings of jealousy. ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ

 

"When you love someone, you have no control."

“When you love someone, you have no control.”


 

2:8 โ€“ Red: [Sighs] When you love someone, you have no control. That’s what love is. Being powerless.
 
Liz: I don’t know what’s wrong with me.
Red: There’s nothing wrong with you.
[Kisses her forehead, cheek]
Red: There’s nothing wrong with you.
โ†ฅ โ†ง
2:8 โ€“ Red: You are never to see her again.

[ โ™ซ ] Are you a dead man or a fake?

Tom: Yeah. I got it.
[Red grabs Tom’s wrist; angrily:] I don’t think you do. Look at me: You.are.never.to.see.her.again!

 

"You are never to see her again."

“You are never to see her again.”

 
[ Red assures Lizzy there is nothing abnormal about still being in love with Tom (whether she actually is is unclear), but then in the next scene, he tries to get Tom out of the picture. He does not approve of this relationship. This could be the concern of a vigilant father, I suppose, but most fathers of 30 year olds are not that involved in their daughter’s lives. ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ
 

2:9 โ€“ Red: I’ve rarely thought about what I once was. But I wonder if a ray of light were to make it into the cave, would I be able to see it? Or feel it? Would I gravitate to its warmth? And if I did, would I become less hideous?โ™ค I didn’t want you to come here, follow me here…

 

The blind Mexican fish story.

The blind Mexican fish story.

 
[ Red is invoking the idea of Liz as a “ray of light.” She is lit up against a golden background in the scene. He is looking for a transformation of himself in intimate terms that would be inappropriate in an F/D relationship. ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ
 

2:9 โ€“ Braxton: I know all the stories, Red. I know where it was and I know when it disappeared. I know about the house, the fire, the girl. [looks at Red, Liz, then Red again] No wonder you came for her. She was there that night, wasn’t she? She’s the one?
Red: Shoot him. Shoot him!

2:10 โ€“ Braxton: Well, you better hurry. ‘Cause your girlfriend, the princess, she’s got the answers in her head that I’m looking for, and I found a way to get them out.

[ Braxton, despite knowing “all the stories,” doesn’t connect Liz and Red as father and daughter. ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ

 
2:10: Staged kissing scene.
 

Illusion [Episode 2:10 The Blacklist] Megan Boone and James Spader

Illusion [Episode 2:10 The Blacklist] Megan Boone and James Spader

 
[ This shot, taken of Liz and Red during Liz’s memory recovery session, shows Red and Liz posed as if they are about to kiss. It is pure Lizzington bait. There is no kiss. It’s a carefully set up scene. ]

 
2:10 โ€“ Liz [to Red]: You were there. You were there, weren’t you?
Red: Yes.
Liz: There were people with the woman, looking for it. The Fulcrum. You were one of them.
Red: It’s not that simple.
Liz: But that’s why you were there. That’s why you came into my life then. And that’s why you’re here now. Not because of me or who I am to you, whatever connection we might have, but because of some object. Some thing.โ™ค
Red: Whatever you remember โ€“
Liz: What I remember is leaving my father dying on the floor of a burning house. [ Sniffles ] There’s no way he could have survived that.
Red: Lizzy, the memories of a four-year-old are unreliable.
Liz: My father was killed because of the Fulcrum, because you and your people came for it that night. Well, I want you to know something. This charade of you pretending to care about me was a waste of your time because I don’t know where it is.โ™ค

 
[ Liz has assumed up until now that Red’s connection with her has gone beyond the fact she may know where the Fulcrum is. This says something about her mindset. She wants Red to appreciate her for “who I am,” not simply as a means to an end. If Red were her father, would this doubt be plausible? A father’s love is inherent and unconditional. Further, Liz believes that her father died after Red and ‘his people’ came for the Fulcrum that night. It’s important to note that the burn scars on Red’s back do not mean Red is Lizzy’s father, only that he was there, in that fire. ]
 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ
 

2:11 โ€“ Ressler: What’s going on with you and Reddington? You two have a little lovers’ quarrel?

2:11 โ€“ Red: Agent Keen is late.
Ressler: She’s having room service. What, are you in the doghouse?
Red: Oh, that’s a shame. She’s gonna miss the most tantalizingly delicious khorem baklava.

[ Just a couple examples of “office banter” about Red and Liz’s relationship, which Samar (in 2:5) has told Liz is common. ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ
 

2:11 Red explains negotiation to Liz using the Tango Milonga as a metaphor:
 

Red compares the art of negotiation to a tango.

Red compares the art of negotiation to a tango.


 
[ Is this the kind of analogy a father would use to explain negotiation to his daughter? In addition, as @SundayInAugust has pointed out, Liz is made up like the female Tango dancer, with red lipstick (which she rarely wears) and her hair done up in a similar hairstyle. It’s hard for me to not relate the scene to “Last Tango in Paris,” about a sexual relationship between an older man (Marlon Brando) and a young woman (Maria Schneider). ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ
 

2:12 โ€“ Liz: [ To Red ] Stop hoping things are gonna get better between us. You and me, it’s just business. That’s all it’s ever gonna be.โ™ค

[ This is not the first time Liz has insisted on a “business-like” relationship with Red after a falling out. This seems to be a recurrent pattern for them, seldom lasting more than an episode. She even got over Red killing Sam, though that took a couple of episodes. ]
 

2:13 โ€“ Liz: [ To Red ] I have the Fulcrum. Tell me what it is, and I’ll tell you where to find it.

2:13 โ€“ Red: I believe I know the real reason you don’t want me to have the Fulcrum.
Liz: That is?
Red: Because you’re afraid that once you give it to me, you’ll be of no further use to me and you’ll never see me again.

[ If Red really just wanted the Fulcrum, if he simply is using her, wouldn’t he just abduct her and force her to tell him โ€“ throw a knife at her or shoot her kneecaps, techniques he has used to get information from others? (Red seems to have a thing about kneecaps.) The Fulcrum is essential to his own survival, but as at several times in the past, he puts his relationship with Liz above his own life, allowing her to keep possession of the Fulcrum. Earlier, it could be argued that he needed her to survive in order to get at the Fulcrum, but now she has it. If he didn’t care about her, why wouldn’t he just take it? ]

[ In the second passage, Red knows that Liz has become attached to him. If she were his daughter, would she be concerned their relationship would end once she gave it to Red? ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ
 

Red's last word: "Lizzy"

Red’s last word: “Lizzy”


 

2:14 โ€“ [ Yaabari holds gun to back Red’s head. Red closes his eyes and says one word: ] Lizzy.

[ Red has given up hope, thinks he is about to die and “Lizzy” is the last thing he says. Not Carla or Jennifer (his family), but someone who means more to him. ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ
 

2:14: Liz: “…I care about you”

 

Liz: "โ€ฆI care about you."

Liz: “โ€ฆI care about you.”


 

2:14 โ€“ Liz: [ To Red ] You. You’re talking about you. Wow. You are so damaged. You can’t accept help from anyone. Has anyone ever helped you? Is that why you are the way you are? Because you don’t feel deserving of it? Is that why you can’t be vulnerable for a second? I risked my life for you because I care about you.โ™ค Deal with that.

[ This is the first time Liz has spoken of any feelings for Red. She has used him for emotional support, and he has put her life before his several times, but she has never verbally acknowledged any appreciation of this. “Care about” is pretty weak tea for American audiences, but The Blacklist has a large international audience. I see the show as almost Victorian in its parsimony in describing relationships. Still Victorian novels could be highly erotic even with no actual discussion of sex. I was an addict of Thomas Hardy novels when I was in high school. In Tess of the D’Urbervilles, the key sex scene is entirely omitted, never described at all. In another obscure novel, the entire story is transformed by the final paragraph which, in retrospect, changes all the relationships in the book, yet cannot be ascertained by “skipping ahead.” So much for my plug for Thomas Hardy novels. ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ
 

2:15 โ€“ Liz: [ To Judge Denner ] Well There was a time early on when I thought, because of his implications, that he might be my father.”
 

"I thought he might have been my father."

“I thought he might be my father.”


 
[ Past tense; she no longer believes this. I’m not sure, but I think this dates back to the final minutes of Season One, when Red insisted, “Your father is dead. He died in that fire.” Red has told Lizzy, “I have never lied to you,” and Daniel Knauf (writer & Co-EP of the show) tweeted on 2/5/2015, “Red does not lie.” ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ
 

2:15 โ€“ Advice from Dembe
 

Dembe: "You have to tell her โ€ฆ about Tom." Red: "I don't know how to do that."

Dembe: “You have to tell her โ€ฆ about Tom.” Red: “I don’t know how to do that.”


 

2:15 โ€“ Red: Tell her what?
Dembe: About Tom. You should have told her some time ago.
Red: I don’t know how do that, Dembe.
Dembe: Yes, you do. You tell her the truth by telling her everything.โ™ค
Red: I don’t think I can do that.
Dembe: Maybe you should stop thinking about it and do it.โ™ค

[ Why would Red be so reluctant to tell Liz he had hired Tom to keep an eye on her if he were indeed her father? He could just say he was trying to protect her. It’s much more difficult to explain to her why he would do this if her were NOT her father. Further, would he expect his daughter to be outraged and leave him because of this? โ€“ yet he apparently he is afraid that Liz would do so. ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ
 

2:16 โ€“ Red: One step at a time, Lizzy.
Liz: He’s not gonna come back. [ referring to Tom ]
Red: He will. This journey we’re on isn’t over just yet. You may have given up on us, but I haven’t.

2:16 โ€“ Red: โ€“ Circumstances change. Think, Tom. I’m the one who told you to go and never come back, so for me to be responsible for your return, you must know I don’t have a comparable option.

[ Again, Red puts Liz’s well-being above his own interests, even traveling to Germany to bring back Tom, the one person who can exonerate Liz of murdering the harbormaster. ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ
 

2:16 Red on being an anonymous benefactor
 

Liz will help the daughter of the man Tom killed. Red reflects.

Liz will help the daughter of the man Tom killed. Red reflects.


 
[ In the most recent episode (2:16 Tom Keen), the most conservative way of looking at Red’s monologue about being an anonymous sponsor also implies that Red killed Liz’s father, mother or possibly both. He is describing a relationship which goes beyond anything Liz seems to be contemplating (putting Ames’ daughter through college); so I assume he’s talking about himself and his relationship with Liz, a relationship that has spanned 26 years at least. Since Liz’s decision comes as the result of her guilt over the killing of Ames, it seems that Red is talking of the guilt associated with killing someone, too. Liz, like Ames’ daughter, lost her father. ]

 

โŠฐ โ™ค โŠฑ

 

2:16 โ€“ Liz: You knew about Tom โ€“ that if he came back they’d exonerate him to protect the task force. He’d get his life back. You saved a man you hate to save me.

โ™ซ does everything go away? yeah, everything goes away
but I’m gonna be here till forever โ€ฆ

 

Liz remarks that Red brought back Tom, who het hate, "to save me."

Liz remarks that Red brought back Tom, who he hates,”to save me.”


 
[ Liz says to Red that she realizes he has done something he hated to do (bringing Tom back) in order to “save her.” Increasingly, she is becoming more thoughtful and mature and appreciative of Red. It will be interesting to see if she suffers another relapse into childishness, now that Tom is back on the scene. ]

 

เผบโœฆ โ™ค โœฆเผป

 
Personally, I’ve become increasingly comfortable with the fact that there are a hundred different directions the show could take, but in the end, the producers and writers will choose one. Being an impatient person, I’ve developed my own endgame. Plus I sometimes go to the fanfics for a little Lizzington action, but realistically, I see that the game is really in the writers’ ballpark. I enjoy playing around with some of the riddles and clues the writers leave, but rarely think I can project forward more than an episode or two. Even if the writers do take cues from social media, they can/will not admit to doing so. So Thursdays have become popcorn and beer nights for us, and I’ve tried to take James Spader’s advice to heart, “Just watch the show.”

And with Jon Bokenkamp’s penchant for always surprising the audience, who knows? Red may turn out to be Liz’s father after all.

 

เผบโœฆ โ™ค โœฆเผป

 
 
 

๐Ÿ”ด Special Update:

In March 2016, The WSJ blog was changed to require a subscription to the Wall Street Journal and registration by real name. It also put in place a strict code of conduct, which finally puts an end to the bullying and trolling. So, it has essentially been shut down. For the record, except for the requirement of having a subscription, many of the changes were ones I suggested to Jason Evans. For additional detail on these requirements, see Scribblings Jan-Mar 2016.” Also included there are some excerpts.

Social media is a wonderful thing, but it is clearly susceptible to abuses of this sort.

P.S. I continue to be amazed by the number of views this article gets. It clearly could be updated, but I’ll pass โ€“ at least for now.
// 4/12/2016


 
 

๐Ÿ”ด Appendix 1: Letter to Jason Evans (1), WSJ Speakeasy Blog on The Blacklist

 

April 13, 2015

To: Jason Evans, WSj Speakeasy Blog on The Blacklist

Dear Jason,

I have been on and off the WSJ Speakeasy blog on The Blacklist the last couple of weeks and was surprised at the lack of balance. So I wrote up a 10 or so page review, with help from prominent “shippers” who had already compiled impressive, reasoned lists of why they did not think Red is Liz’s father http://wp.me/pDKwi-KE. I didn’t want to load the whole article onto the blog so I just provided the link to it. By the way, I am not a shipper. I am open. I simply was surprised at the lack of “shipper” presence.

For starters, I was told it was ridiculous to even read such long document (which iincludes a lot of photos). I was told to get off the crack pipe, that shippers are trying to live vicariously through Liz, asked if I was suggesting incest and told in no uncertain terms that a romantic relationship between Red & Lizzie would be ‘disgusting’ โ€“ even if he is not her biological father. Oh, and I was called delusional. But I really could care less โ€“ I’m having tons of fun working in my own sandbox. In fact, this is the first time I’ve posted about this debate on my blog, whereas it’s 60-80% what is discussed on WSJ now.

If you look at my article, you’ll see the sole argument I made was that there was evidence to support the idea that Red is not Liz’s biological father. Nothing more. I put disclaimers at the beginning and end of that article, saying ‘who knows?’ In fact, I believe my analysis a couple weeks ago about Liz and the harbormaster’s daughter helped support the notion that Red might be an unrelated ‘secret benefactor.’

Here’s what you might do:

Just do a page search through the blog on the word ‘father’

It’s really just one long text file, very easy to do.

You will see what I mean. The site has become an anti-shipper site, except for a few brave souls who either innocently wander in or who make a quiet statement and then leave โ€“ though it is also being trolled, apparently by people who feel excluded.

Frankly, I doubt if there’s much that can be done. The people active on the site now take satisfaction that WSJ is getting the ‘truth’ from JB while less “reputable” [sic] sites are being strung along with shipper ‘crumbs’. They may be. I don’t know. Evidence from writers such as Daniel Knauf & one of the Brandons is dismissed out-of-hand, because ‘WSJ gets the truth’ โ€“ the Father/Daughter dynamic โ€“ straight from JB. The point is, this has become a very one-sided place to exchange views. It’s become xenophobic & inbred. If you read my article, I’m hope you will agree I tried to be even-handed and dispassionate.

The names and examples you asked me for will pop up if you do the “father” search. It does not help if JB only interviews with sites with a given pre-disposition (as WSJ has become โ€“ he may not know this). And I realize how silly it is for you to be the person I mention it to. (Sorry.) I used the screenshot from the writers’ room as an additional piece of evidence that there are reasons to think Red is not Liz’s dad, since it says Red killed Liz’s dad. It could be just a scenario they tested. But note โ€“ I’ve sat on that for four months, because I absolutely love the show and did not want to be a troublemaker.

I really hope the showrunners resolve this matter soon. My guess is that whatever the resolution is, only a small number of people will actually stop watching. It could, hoever, lose some of its zing. Moderation would be nice to prevent sbuse. How about an intern? Most of the other TV blogs at Speakeasy appear not to be in use. Perhaps you could devote one of these to “shippers” โž” and feature an Oxford-style debate (or boxing match) every couple of weeks between these two persuasions. (Lol)

Sorry to bother you with this. I’m just trying to represent an enthusiastic group of viewers in a fair way. No one encouraged me to do this.

Sincerely
Auriandra @BlacklistDCd, Twitter account for BlacklistDeclassified.not/about

 

เผบโœฆ โ™ค โœฆเผป

 
 

๐Ÿ”ด Appendix 2: WSJ Blog Post: Shipper Bullying

 
__________
WSJ: 6:06 pm April 17, 2015
Anonymous wrote:

No abuse of ‘shippers on this blog?

You might try this: do a page-search on this comment section. It’s just one long flat file, a single very long page. Search for the word “father” and go through checking the context of each use of the term. You may be surprised at how often commenters who say Red is Liz’s father or near-father (step-, surrogate, etc) refer to Lizzington shippers or the possibility of an attraction between Red and Lizzie with terms of derision like “gross,” “disgusting,” “sick” or even “NO!” etc. Little such vitriol spews forth from the other side.

This imbalance reminded me of a science story from last year:

ScienceDaily (Oct 29, 2014): Liberal or conservative? Reactions to disgust are a dead giveaway http://bit.ly/1CXq7Y5

This little test (the “father” search) can give you a sense of the kind of abuse that’s been heaped on ‘shippers on this blog. WSJ is of course a very conservative newspaper, and appears to be living up to its image as such by abusing those whose opinions differ.

โ€œPity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.โ€
โ€“ Edna St Vincent Millay

 

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๐Ÿ”ด Appendix 3: WSJ Blog Post: Defense of Shipper Argument

 
__________
WSJ: 3:13 pm April 8, 2015
Auriandra wrote:

As I wrote earlier on this blog, I think Red sees himself as Liz’s “secret benefactor,” and that I hope he has a relationship with Vanessa Cruz. I guess that makes me a Vanington shipper.

Let’s just look at the question of whether Red is Liz’s biological father:

1) Red has said he’s not her father.

2) Liz in the “Tom Keen” episode indicated she no longer thinks Red is her father.

3) Daniel Knauf on 2/5/2015 had this Twitter exchange: (bolding added for clarity)

โ‹™ Ash @Silverarrow82 Feb 5
@Daniel_Knauf Are we going have to wait until the end of the show (like 6 yrs) until they answer the dad question? #calmandcomposedfangirl ๐Ÿ˜‰
โ†ฅ โ†ง
โ‹™ Daniel Knauf @Daniel_Knauf Feb 5
@Silverarrow82 Weโ€™ve already answered the Dad question. Several times. Out loud.J #AskKnaufAnything #TheBlacklist

4) Also on 2/5/2015, Daniel Knauf tweeted “Red does not lie.” Red tells half-truths, clearly, but has he lied (told false things) to Liz? When?

5) Brandon Sonnier, who has written several episodes tweeted on 4/4/2015:

โ‹™ Brandon Sonnier @BrandonBSonnier ยท Apr 4
@HestiaPrytaneum @DaveMetzger @BrandonMargolis Raymond Reddington is a man of his word. As are we. #TheBlacklist

6) Megan Boone has called the show “a love story” โ€“ between Red and Liz.

โ‹™ NSTARZ: The Blacklist NBC: Liz & Redโ€™s Relationship Is A โ€˜Love Storyโ€™, Megan Boone Explains http://bit.ly/19zZGRv @NBCBlacklist
// 6/26/2014, โ€œI think The Blacklist is a love storyโ€ฆI think that at the core of it, the thing that people talk about the most are the relationships that Lizzy has, that she has with Red, that she has with Tom and Ressler, even,โ€ Boone told the Gold Derby. โ€œFor some reason, I think that because sheโ€™s so alone and so ambiguous as a human being thereโ€™s something in the audience that wants her to find a place and find a person that she can rely on. So I think ultimately the payoff, and the only payoff you could see is that she ends up finding that person.โ€ When asked if she thinks that person will be Red, Boone was quick to answer in the affirmative. However, it is important to remember that Boone is equating love with trust, not necessarily with romance.

SPOILER: 7) A timeline posted in The Blacklist Writer’s Room clearly says “Red and partner kill Liz’s Father” w two possible dates, 1991 and 1997.

8) When a male wearing black gloves is leading Liz through the flames, the camera focuses on a man lying on the floor who begins to move as Liz cries out “Daddy, No!” The scene comes right after the familiar shot of her bunny highlighted against the flames. The camera then turns to show Liz and the man’s clasped hands, as they move on. Three men are are seen exiting the burning house ahead of them. Of course, this could have been overwritten by those Dr Orchard later warn her about.

~~~~~~~

About 75% of this does not appear in the article cited earlier. There is much more there.

 

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๐Ÿ”ด Appendix 4: WSJ Blog Post: Defense of Article (“For the Love of Lizzington”)

 
__________
9:39 pm April 9, 2015
Auriandra wrote:

My “projection” of how The Blacklist story might unfold โ€“ including Liz’s bio-father being an Alliance “embed” (perhaps even one we already know) and running for President in 2016 as a dark horse candidate for President โ€“ is nothing if not whimsical. Heck, I even threw in Alan Shore as Red’s old buddy who agrees to defend him in his murder trial for killing another one of Lizzie’s fathers (fomenting no doubt another conniption fit from Lizzie). I also suggested James Spader could play both parts! This was a spoof on projecting too far into the future. (Lol?)

As for Lizzie’s scar, I can’t see how she could have gotten it from that fire. It’s on the inside of her hand and wrist and very curiously shaped. It occurred to me once she might have grabbed that melting doll. The plastic would have acted like napalm sticking to her skin and being difficult to wipe off. In her memory, the scar appears magically, perhaps as the result of Lizzie’s subconscious tried to make sense of it. For a hot fire to have reached that part of her body, it would burn a lot of other things, too, the outsides of her hands, her clothing and, of course, her hair. Not to mention the skin on her face. Compared to the realistic scar on Red’s back, Liz’s remains mysterious.

The rest of this post addresses objections made to various “shipper” points.

@Belle “Red may not be Liz’s father, but the mere thought that he considers himself a paternal presence in her life, or the fact that Liz once wondered if he was her father… should make shipping these two people beyond comprehension. The producers themselves have used the phrase “surrogate father/surrogate daughter.”
||โž” Liz is 31 years old. Why is Red so intent on constantly being with her? Is she still in danger? What’s in her memory that he stiล‚l wants? It’s not typical for fathers of 31yo daughters to be so possessive of them. It’s possible that that’s where shipping comes from: the inexplicability of this bond. Megan Boone says shipping is the result of Liz & Dembe loving Red and seeing the good in him. Some of the audience wants to see that good. Some externalize this by shipping as a way of wanting Red to have at least some happiness ( http://bit.ly/1BpNOYw 3/11/2015 )

@(I lost track of who wrote about this: ) I disagree with the idea that t’s impossible to “ship” a pair of characters & still grasp the important & serious aspects of the show. All you need is intelligence and imagination! Besides, have you noticed 60-80% of this blog is devoted to relationship issues, much more than my blog for instance (10-20%). I wish more time was spent here on the important political, policy and biomedical issues raised by the series,

Denigrating “soaps” is kind of thoughtless. The mythical backbone of The Blacklist is of a “serial,” based on the soap opera model. The individual “Blacklisters” correspond to the “procedural” model (eg single episodes of Star Trek or Gunsmoke) in which everything is wrapped up in a single episode. The genius of the series is its creative melding of these two. Traditionally, serials have been associated with women, procedurals with guys. Reminds me of this little poem from my farm-wife mother-in-law: “Men’s work is from sun to sun. / But women’s work is never done.”

@Blacklist List “#2 Red’s interest in Liz is romantic (not family) – not just absurd, but really, really gross. He’s been taking care of her since she was a child.”
||โž” Funny that some shippers feel the same way if it IS a daughter/father figure relationship. WHY is it absurd? WHY is it gross? Please tell. Red had very little contact with Liz for 20+ years. He sent money and got updates from Sam. Odd behavior for a father.

Some comments on #daddygaters (#Lizzington slang for those who insist Red is Liz’s bio-dad) from Twitter:

โ— btw, as #lizzington shipper Id never feel the need to be vocal were it not for daddygate that defies logic&daddybait that defies the subtext

โ— It isn’t “strange” or “creepy” to be in love with someone older than you. #bogieandbacall #lizzington

โ— Last night’s #The Blacklist – my thoughts on #Lizzington and those creepy paternal vibes. http://tmblr.co/ZLMCEq1DoJL7z

โ— If you still think Red is Lizzie’s father, then you don’t understand @NBCBlacklist! #Lizzington

@NBCBlacklist Baldwin, Rod Stewart, Mary Kate, Bruce Willis & Michael Douglas all have a bigger age differences than Red & Liz #TheBlacklist

โ‹™ @Lace “whether thoughts of sexual attraction on her part may surface in dreams or her words, from my point of view, are of no consequence until Red’s perspective has been ascertained.”
||โž” Then why did the writers/producers put it there. In the comment track to the first season, one of the commenters made the point that on TV, not a moment is wasted.

โ‹™ “[A]t what point on the time line did Red’s perceived obligation to and/or need, business-wise, for Liz develop into or become integrated with seeing her as a potential romantic interest?”
||โž” I doubt if it’s emerged yet. It can happen gradually, as between Lizzy Bennet and Mr Darcy or as it did for Jill and Joe Biden. Red says he’s ‘playing the long game. Spader has said resolution will come “in the last episode of the last season.”

โ‹™ In response to @SundayInAugust’s observation that Liz & the tango dancer have the same haircut: “To me, both hairstyles kept the hair off of [Liz’s] shoulders, but that was the only similarity. Liz also wore her hair up at the T. Earl King auction โ€ฆ I would have expected the male dancer to be much older.”
||โž” There are wo different styles for Liz in Earl King vs Denisov http://bit.ly/1ygZrGH (photo). Liz’s is identical to the tango dancer. I looked this up: the Denisov hairstyle is a “headband roll and tuck.” The Earl King hairstyle is a “swept-back low bun.” I think the parallel is very clear and doesn’t need corroboration. I’d suggest rewatching this scene. Spader’s voice is at its most seductive and the content is explicitly about sex, sensuality and seduction. If Red is Lizzie’s father, this would be “creepy,” quoting some on Twitter, maybe even “gross,” quoting @Blacklist List

โ‹™ “I think that the producers intended to be ambiguous. Off hand, I also think of the still shot from the scene where Red leans in to Liz’s head or face when Liz is in the chair recalling the fire, which shot you post with your article.”
||โž” I totally agree. As I wrote: Title: 2:10: Staged kissing scene.: [ This shot, taken of Liz and Red during Liz’s memory recovery session, shows Red and Liz posed as if they are about to kiss. It is pure Lizzington bait. There is no kiss. It’s a carefully set up scene. ] Emphasis added

Lace concludes saying, “This paragraph was not intended to be an exhaustive point by point response to each of your examples.”
||โž” totally agree it covers 3 of about 50 points made.

โ‹™ @Peace “Please be thoughtful before you type a comment, and consider that this is the wrong place and the wrong time to be waging a war against the producers. Please take your arguments to them, using their online platforms, not ours.”
||โž” But the writers, actors and producers are clearly not always on the same page. Why should anyone be asked to leave for merely giving their opinion? Unless they are abusive? Perhaps the blog needs guidelines in addition to those WSJ has in place. I would suggest that the 1st Amendment might be considered and guidelines be voted on.

โ‹™ @Marcell “But to try and make Liz out to be the poster child for wife abuse is wrong.” @Nan “People who see it that way have never seen real spousal abuse.”
||โž” Holding s gun to your wife’s head is not domestic abuse? But it is. My nephew was convicted of felony domestic abuse for pointing a knife at his brother who had barged into his room. He was never closer to him than five feet. Here’s what Megan Boone says (http://bit.ly/1zQZLp7 Feb 2015):

“I think once a relationship goes past the line and becomes abusive or sadistic in any way, thereโ€™s just no going back to pure true love. There just isnโ€™t. It already has violence in it. It already has mistrust. So I always felt like it was just an oversimplification to say oh, she still loves him, you know?” โ€“ Of course, Jon Bokenkamp went on to say their relationship “is not over.”

โ‹™ @Zed I fully agree with your analysis of why a Red/Lizzie relationship would be ill-advised at this point. ||โž” i.e. Liz is not Red’s equal. It’s not her age per se, but her immaturity. Lizzington may be a long game outcome, however. Nicely put.

โ‹™ Ah and finally, @DavidCam If you had read the article, you would know that it is an attempt pull together what’s out there that supports the ‘shippers’ case, since it has been effectively exiled from this site by the kind of abusive harangues and insults that you have mastered. Reactions like yours are why I did not post the article here back in March when I wrote it. Being bullied sucks.

Someday, perhaps you will teach me how you can judge someone’s work without actually reading it. Must have been a fun way to get through college. I’m impressed.

Here’s the link again, in case anyone is still curious: BlacklistDCd: For the Love of Lizzington http://wp.me/pDKwi-KE

[ Note: Yes, this is snarky, and I apologize. ]

 

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๐Ÿ”ด Appendix 5: Letter to Jason Evans (2), WSJ Speakeasy Blog on The Blacklist

April 22, 2015

To: Jason Evans, WSJ Speakeasy Blacklist blog

Dear Jason: You did ask for this. I am posting it on my blog, as an addition to the original Lizzington article http://wp.me/pDKwi-KE

As you know, ardent viewers of The Blacklist who are active on social media tend to fall into two groups. On the one hand, there are those who identify themselves as Father/Daughter supporters, those who believe Red Reddington and Liz Keen are related in some way. On the other hand are those who do not believe this. A subset of this group identify themselves as “shippers,” those who hope that a romantic relationship will develop between these two main characters. The “shipping” phenomenon (as in “relation-ship”) is not unique toThe Blacklist and applies to other shows as well. Not all shippers “ship for” a relationship between Red and Liz. Some would like Red to reconnect with his ex-wife, Carla (“Carlington shippers”); some would like Liz to connect with Agent Donald Ressler (“Keenler shippers”).

The percentages of those holding views or strong views on this question are unknown, due to the lack of publicly available scientific polls, although in the non-scientific polls, โ‰ƒ 40% F/Ders comes up the most. My prejudice is to think that “ardent” viewers are a small subset of total viewers and that the apparent predominance of the F/D perspective could be the result of the Season 1 finale, in which the final scene shows burn scars on Red’s back โ€“ perhaps from the same fire Liz thinks caused the scar on her wrist. Season 2 has shown many reasons to doubt this conclusion, but the image left by the finale remains potent and determinative for many. I am convinced most viewers will follow the creative staff wherever it takes the story in the future.

My reason for contacting you was the bullying of “shippers” that has taken place on the WSJ Speakeasy blog. Most “shippers” have left the blog, making it very one-sided. Those posting there now believe that the showrunners turn to WSJ blog (vs “less reputable” sites) almost exclusively for feedback on fan reactions to the show and that in turn they receive the final word from the EPs on the show’s characters and story. In turn, the shippers and writers (and actors, to some extent) have formed a similar bond. It’s an interesting social dynamic.

The bullying of anyone is upsetting to me. You asked for names and examples. I am providing examples from the commentary on 2:18 Vanessa Cruz. It includes responses to an article I wrote to make the case that the shippers’ point of view should be considered as a reasonable interpretation of the story to date.

Of 57 (just like Heinz!) blog posts I’ve written to date, “For the Love of Lizzington” is the only one I’ve done on the “shipping” phenomenon. My blog Twitter account is @BlacklistDCd & my blog is @BlacklistDeclassified.net/about I hope you will put this information to use in stopping the bullying behavior at your blog. Regardless of who turns out to be right, the bullying is inappropriate and should be of concern to the editors of The Wall Street Journal.

 

Bullying of Shippers* at WSJ Blog

Using commentary on 2:18 Vanessa Cruz
*or people assumed are shippers

Words used to describe “shippers” or their views
at WSJ Speakeasy Blog on The Blacklist:

Sick, inappropriate, creepy, cringe, “drinking krazy Kool-Aid,” “la la denial,” (favoring incest implied, 3 instances), ‘pathetic girls craving fatherly love,’ “UGH!”, “touches on morality, principles, values and deeply held beliefs of what is right and what is wrong,” offensive, bizarre, gross, “fan envy,” absurd, propaganda, “put down the crack pipe,” “trying to live vicariously through the lead heroin [sic],” beyond comprehension, BS, desperate, embarrassing, “have some self-respect,” “keep your crying on Twitter,” in poor taste, preposterous, deranged, obnoxious, “I want a pony,” pathetic, wacky, “Don’t you have better things to do with your time?”, Woody Allen scenario, “No!”, wild, off-the-rails, “as your ship sinks to the bottom” โž” plus a LOT of “get off my lawn” talk.

โ€“ extracted from the commentary for 2:18 Vanessa Cruz http://on.wsj.com/1Gi1ixC ; many terms used multiple times

Twitter version:
 

Stop the Bullying

Stop the Bullying


 
Passages from abusive posts:
(reverse chronological)
__________
 
3:00 am April 15, 2015
Susan wrote:

“Lizzington”?? As in Lizzie and Reddington in father/daughter duo, right? But romantically??? What krazy koolaid are they drinking?!? That’s just sick, inappropriate, creepy, and cringe.

And @Kim, IT DOESN’T MATTER IF THERE ISN’T 100% AGREEMENT AMONG CAST AND CREW (Btw, that is just your opinion). If the top dogs (Eisendrath and Bokemp) says they are f/d dynamics, then ITS THEIR WORD. PERIOD. Wake up from your la la denial.

__________
3:51 pm April 17, 2015
Nan wrote:

Red would most definitely have a father/daughter relationship with the woman’s daughter. Unless he takes after Woody Allen who went after his adopted daughter once she reached the age of majority (ugh!),

__________
3:56 am April 18, 2015
Anonymous wrote:

@Aurianda/LizzieB90 So, what the hell do you want to get out of this blog? You want people to click onto your own blog and have an AHA! moment of “there IS a sexual tension between Red and Liz”!! Is that what you want? Do you really think that’s gonna happen? Do you REALLY think this topic is still up to debate for people who’s been watching for close to 2 seasons?!?

First of all, this is a TV show, and not a propaganda. Viewers at this point KNOW intuitively of the nature of Red/Liz relationship. It’s like that dress debate. For those who see black/blue dress, there’s hell no way you’ll convince them to start looking at it as white/gold. SO QUIT YOUR “COME LOOK AT MY BLOG” because it’s starting to look real desperate. And you’re a full grown woman, have some self-respect. If people here have rejected your BS before, they’ll still reject your BS.

Second of all, keep your creepy obsession to yourself and enjoy the show. The “daddygaters” don’t have blogs to convince people because why expend energy on what is plainly obvious. It’s the pathetic lizzingtons who’s causing a stir, because of your sinking ship.

Thirdly, if you really thought lizzington was endgame, you wouldn’t need a blog to convince others, and mainly, convince your own self. You wouldn’t need to write a damn 15 point essay on it. DON’T YOU HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO WITH YOUR TIME?

Finally, again, THIS IS A TV SHOW. Get a grip. RED AND LIZ ARE NOT EVER GOING TO BE LOVERS. And the sooner you wrap your head around that, the better the blow as your ship sinks to the bottom.

Keep your crying on twitter where you have other deranged comrades of obnoxious lizzingtons, who are pestering poor MB to make a video of lizzingtons. LOL She ignored all of your damn pleas. Get a clue. And have some self-respect and leave the girl alone. It’s embarrassing.
โ‡ˆ โ‡Š
[ I’ve added 850 followers on my blog-related Twitter account since Feb 1. I have the largest following of all the non-commercial micro-blogs and the fastest growing. I am not looking here for followers. ]
__________
1:30 pm April 15, 2015
Anonymous wrote:

There are a lot of girls/women out there that must have been very hurt/disappointed by a lack of fatherly love.

__________
9:24 pm April 14, 2015
SueBee wrote:

I really want the writers to adress the “is he her father” angle.
Everytime someone posts about a romantic relationship between Liz and Red, it gives me the creeps. Whether he is her biological father or not, he plays that role in her life. There is NOTHING romantic about their relationship.
Perhaps Liz could ask him again, if he was her father. He could reply, “whether, I am or not, is it really that important? I think of you as a father would. Does everything have to be defined?”
Some sort of a vague Red type answer.
They call themselves, “Shippers.” Really, Shippers, do you want to see Red and Liz in bed??? UGH.

__________
7:35 am April 14, 2015
Anonymous, too wrote:

This is not a difference of opinion about a theory or a clue. In the first episode of the series, many people began to believe that Red was Liz’s father. Many clues have continued to support this belief after 40 episodes. It is difficult to accept or read about a romantic relationship after all this time.
โ‡ˆ โ‡Š
[ But others believed Red when he said he was not her father in 1:10 Garrick2 ]

__________
7:35 am April 14, 2015
Anonymous, too wrote:

This touches on morality, principles, values and deeply held beliefs of what is right and what is wrong. Please respect the fact that many people view Red and Liz as a father-daughter dynamic and a romantic resolution to this relationship is very offensive.

__________
3:28 am April 14, 2015
WE ARE ALL ANONYMOUS wrote:

And perhaps the year old nature works against the Lizzingtons, as you clearly are. A typical reader is led to believe that it is indeed f/d dynamics, so in that mindset, it is just bizarre and inappropriate to shift to romantic love dynamics. We are not shifting from friend to lover, but father to lover. Gross just thinking about that.

__________
5:54 pm April 10, 2015
MadisonW. wrote:

One reason I think there will never be a romantic relationship between Red and Liz, James Spader would never allow it. Spader, who apparently has much input as to the direction of the show, would have to portray Red in a completely differenty way. He’d loose the mystery, and some guy lovesick over a woman young enough to be his daughter doesn’t have much appeal. Also, if Red continues as a father-father figure he stays in control.. He loses that in a romantic relationship—with Liz
I just don’t think Spader would like the the sudden change. Who knows? I could be completely wrong.
โ‡ˆ โ‡Š
[ Odd reading of James “Nothing can get weird enough for me” Spader’s character. Spader has commented on the challenge of playing Red ambiguously. ]

_______
9:34 am April 10, 2015
Anonymous wrote:

Itโ€™s not the age difference that makes the Red-Liz romance creepy, itโ€™s the story thus far. If you want to point to parallels in other TV, movies, fiction or real life โ€“ letโ€™s see a list of examples that parallel ALL these points:

โ€ข Older man (56) has romance with younger woman (31)
โ€ข Younger woman was step daughter of/raised by older manโ€™s close friend who knew step father before younger woman was born.
โ€ข Older man monitored/supported younger woman throughout her life
โ€ข Younger womanโ€™s parents disappeared when younger woman was very young
โ€ข Older man knows, but has withheld from younger woman important details relating to the disappearance of here parents

__________
8:20 am April 10, 2015
SlimShady wrote:.

@Auriandra – After reading your latest post, it’s obvious that your projection into the future is more than a ridiculous spoof, it borders on absurdity. Put down the crack pipe and come back to a semblance of reality.
And who are you to criticize any of the other individuals who post in this blog? (@Peace, @Lace, @DavidCam for example).
This forum is for all to contribute, regardless of whether you happen to agree or not. If you don’t care for someones point of view, then I suggest you keep your snippy and condescending comments to yourself.
โ‡ˆ โ‡Š
[ My “projection” of an end-story on my blog is a spoof, as I indicated when providing the link. My entire post being referred to is included above. I was addressing criticisms that had been made of points in my article, in a tone I intended to be dispassionate. My style is academic. Apparently people think that’s condescending. Same style I’ve used for scientific articles I have written. ]

__________
4:41 am April 10, 2015
Anonymous wrote:

@DavidCam You are correct. The Liz-Red relationship is unmistakably a father daughter dynamic, which is what makes a romantic relationship creepy and gross (at least for most). Whether the actual relationship is bio father, step father in fact or pseudo step father remains to be seen. Until the exact relationship is revealed, there will be those pushing alternative theories no matter how creepy or gross. Don’t feed the trolls.
โ‡ˆ โ‡Š
[ “Trolls,” of course are unwelcome commenters; here, apparently, this refers to shippers, etc ]

__________
12:00 am April 10, 2015
DavidCam wrote:

@Auriandra I’m not spending time reading your “article”. Because at the end of the day, it’s father/daughter dynamics, which I’m convinced of and of which had been portrayed from the show. There had been no sexual tension, no bait for “lizzington” (whatever that is), and no ambiguity. It’s been clear for me from day 1, and given affirmed interviews from the show’s creators, there’s no need of me to read anything that I consider preposterous.
โ‡ˆ โ‡Š
[ My article was not pro-Lizzington. It presented evidence from the show that indicated Red may not be Liz’s bio-dad ]

__________
10:52 pm April 9, 2015
Red’sGrandChild wrote:

@Auriandra : If the kind of scar Mrs. Keen has was made by exposition to fire, I will start writing letters to Santa again and I want a pony ! It could be a bad make up job but IMHO, that scar could only be made by a dash / splash of a chemical agent. As I posted to Belle and thanks to pics she was so nice to provide, Red’s scars look fire made for sure but Lizzie’s one does not at all.
โ‡ˆ โ‡Š
[ I simply mentioned, in passing, that Liz’s scar appeared on her wrist mysteriously during the dream sequence fire scene ]

__________

6:56 pm April 8, 2015
DavidCam wrote:

Wait…hold up…did I miss a step or two that just because Red and Lizzie are not father/daughter (a la Knauff, etc) that the next option is that they’re lovers? Quoting John Bokenkamp to the PRESS (and not on twitter) that he defined the relationship as “father/daughter dynamic”. This was an interview during last summer, at the end of season 1. It is very well possible that Red is a surrogate father, but the dynamic remains as “paternal”. Thus the words of the show creator rules out romantic relationship (unless there are still those who’s holding out for romantic relationship within father/daughter dynamic…yikes)l
โ‡ˆ โ‡Š
[ If Liz and Red are not blood relatives, it simply makes a relationship possible & has from the start; no “waiting period” is required; “shippers” would like to see a relationship emerge; ]

__________

4:57 pm April 8, 2015
Lilyknows wrote:

Megan was talking about a bond that Liz shared with her father, Sam. She was not talking about a bond Liz shared with a lover. Who would compare a father to a lover? No one!
She also did not confirm or deny that Red was her father, or say that the answer had already been given. She said โ€œIf Red isn’t her father then….โ€

__________
3:00 pm April 8, 2015
ShimshamB wrote:

@DavidCam :
The Red and Lizzie romantic relationship can only happen if they are not related at all. Even if we believe he’s not the father, the relationship is not clear at all and can still be family related. I personally prefer to think Red cares about her because he was close friend/colleague with her dad or anything else than family (why would we care only for family ?), and that the whole fire/alliance/fulcrum story is the reason why they were so close.

And a romantic relationship is certainly not the center of this show, it’s not a soap. It’s not the reason Red turned himself to the FBI.

It should be seen as a fan game in parallel of the real story. Well, at least it’s how I see the “lizzinton” and I like it. But I know a lot of those fans just watch the show to see that romance happen and hope a kiss in each next episode… which makes me feel we’re not watching the same show. And as you said, they must be “trying to live vicariously through the lead heroin”…

__________
1:53 pm April 8, 2015
Belle wrote:

Thank you from the bottom of my heart @Lace, @theBlacklist List and @DavidCam and @zed for recognizing and acknowledging the ongoing “father/daughter” dynamic of this show. I agree with your posts.

Red may not be Liz’s father, but the mere thought that he considers himself a paternal presence in her life, or the fact that Liz once wondered if he was her father… should make shipping these two people beyond comprehension. The producers themselves have used the phrase “surrogate father/surrogate daughter.”

Even if you don’t believe that Red is Liz’s father, that doesn’t mean you automatically want to ship them. For heaven’s sake.
โ‡ˆ โ‡Š
[ shippers ship; nothing wrong w it โ€“ it’s a phenom ]

As always, to each their own. As a woman, a daughter, and a wife and mother, I find Lizzington disturbing and in poor taste. Sorry, that’s just the way I see it. People have every right to post about it, but I certainly don’t want to read about it. In my opinion, it is not even a theory as it lacks any basis in script or characterization presented in the episodes.

As someone here once wisely posted, if you don’t like the direction of the show, then write your own fan fiction. Lots of people read or write fan fiction, it’s quite prolific now. I really don’t think that those of us that see paternal affection between Red and the girl he gave to Sam at age 4, need to resort to fan fiction to see a father/daughter story continue.

Just my opinion. I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. You can watch all the episodes for yourself and come to your own conclusions, if you haven’t already. All I know is that Lizzington is…. in the words of @The Blacklist List: “not just absurd, but really, really gross.” Well said.

__________
12:11 pm April 8, 2015
DavidCam wrote:

This may be a huge waste of my time, but I just gotta put my 2 cents in on the “possible” romance between Red and Liz. First of all…NO. As a typical male viewer, this is just a big stinkin’ NO. And I do apologize for being blunt about it, but Red is either her father or her surrogate father. Whatever it may be specifically, the nature and the motivation of that relationship is of “father/daughter” dynamics. And if anyone needs to write a 12-page thesis trying to convince me of otherwise, then that only confirms that I stand absolutely confirmed. If it requires convincing, then something is just not there.

It is interesting how perceptions are so different. And as another poster had said, this is a case of “fan envy” or at least trying to live vicariously through the lead heroin.

__________
12:07 pm April 8, 2015
The Blacklist List wrote:

I’m impressed by the creativity of those suggesting wild theories here, but IMHO some have gone for the rails. Take a “less crazy” idea posted above:

“Red was responsible in some way for the death of her (Liz’s) biological father and doing “nice gestures” to assuage his guilt? ”

…Here is my current list of the wackiest theories being suggested here:

#1 Red was a woman. – too many male gender references in tales from his youth.
#2 Red’s interest in Liz is romantic (not family) – not just absurd, but really, really gross. He’s been taking care of her since she was a child.
#3 Tom and Liz shared a childhood – various variants.

__________
5:06 am April 8, 2015
Lace wrote:

(Note: I acknowledge that viewers have discussed the possibility that Red might be her biological father and not know it, but what matters when considering the possibility of a romantic relationship is what Red believes is his connection to Lizzie. I do not believe that the writers are going for a Woody Allen scenario where Woody/Red falls in love with a young lady whom he knows is his stepdaughter, and in Red’s case, it later is revealed that Red is Liz’s biological father.)

__________
9:08 pm April 7, 2015
Chatterbox wrote:

@Curious1 Have you ever considered starting your own blog? You could only allow posters who think the Blacklist producers are sexist pigs, despise Tom Keen, and occasionally call James Spader names, too.
Think how happy you would be.There would be no one to disagree with you.

__________
9:46 am April 4, 2015
WSJ Reader wrote:

Auriandra: You are entitled to censor your own website if applicable to discourage people from expressing any negative commentary regarding Megan Boone, but you can’t do that here. Every reader has the right to express their own opinion.
โ‡ˆ โ‡Š
[ Say what? This was in response to my innocuous statement:
P.S. I think all the secondary characters have improved this year, and the acting is better, especially Megan Boone’s. I think it’s time to drop the “she can’t act” meme or at least point out specific scenes where you think she #FAILs. ]

========

The only examples of shippers being rude to F/Ders in the comments are, ironically, examples I brought in from the entire universe of #TheBlacklist tweets using the words “gross” etc (taken from examples above). That is from tens of thousands of tweets, that were not directed at F/Ders. I found only four and they are very weak.

 
 
 

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